I wish that Tony Chemero had made it today, as this seems like a version of the dispute the he and Bill have in the context of circadian rhythms

Yes, what a shame!

Fascinating question Luiz - crops up all the time whenever a radical shift in the conceptualisation of the system is required, and it's such an important thing to keep talking about

👍🏼

It's like 'linear' and 'nonlinear', which someone once explained to me as being like describing animals as 'elephants' and 'non elephants'

I love that speech envelope stuff - very cool

That’s two things we agree about today, Andrew ;-)

If you prefer, you can write your question here and I'll read it to the group.

*If anyone preferes

This is one reason I really think eco psych can help here - we're not perfect at it, but we live in this loopy, dynamic kind of world and none of these things are surprising to us. We're at least willing, able, and used to talking this way unlike most of the rest of cog sci

👍🏻

This is old now, and there’s a lot more recent stuff looking at this, but there is very cool stuff trying to make sense of the structure of Mayan political economy, which is organized heterarchically. I tend to think that looking at group behavior has a lot to teach us about possible models of neural organization, and I’ve been wondering recently if this stuff might help in thinking about neural network structure (I still don’t know): https://uapress.arizona.edu/book/heterarchy-political-economy-and-the-ancient-maya

Very cool, will take a look!

I will try to find better, shorter, and more recent stuff to send you!

Anything that spends times thinking about how to think and talk about these systems, regardless of the exact system, is probably worth checking out

Agreed! I have taken so many references in network theory on everything from Alaskan fishing villages to international air travel. Thanks for sharing this reference!

To be clear, there is more recent stuff, which is much better at specifying actual models—that was just the one I remembered off the top of my head

Science really is bloody hard to do well, it's absolutely true

Gomez-Marin and Ghazanfar’s Life of Behavior makes this point about controlling away the phenomenon extremely well

It's so easy to do that while working in perfectly good faith. It's really frustrating :)

It strikes me control vs production is a useful analytic distinction, even if the actual system is messier

you can ask 'what is this mechanism currently up to?' in a given context, which is invaluable

amen to that!

Challenge accepted :)

The book is also a great read! On top of covering a lot of interesting issues!

Thank you! very cool :)